Second wife and childs rights in father job and property
Srikant G
(Querist) 04 October 2014
This query is : Resolved
Hi
Sir
my friend family her father have two Hindu family
first family have 2 child's and without diverse
second family also have 2 child's
father in the government servant
his died in 2010
In the government service book only first family names in book
first family has taking pension and property
but second family not get anything
and is living in second family 25years old
what are the rights in the second family?
second family child's get her father job?
second family child's get her father pension?
tell me what is get second family
Isaac Gabriel
(Expert) 04 October 2014
Its bigamy.But the siblings of second wife are eligible for pensionary benefits,which can be obtained by court orders.Now it's too late to claim compassionate appointment.
ajay sethi
(Expert) 04 October 2014
second wife would not have any rights on her husband property as second marriage was performed during subsistence of earlier mARRIAGE . second wife children would have share in property of their father . chances of compassionate appointment are bleak .
Srikant G
(Querist) 04 October 2014
ajay sethi sir second wife no right her husband property or job
but second wife son get the property and job?
second wife son name is not in the service book
and he take job? her father died in 2010
he take order form first wife?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 04 October 2014
children of second family have right of succession but the question of family pension can arise only when first wife dies. The child of second family is 25(+) so no pension can be claimed.
Compassionate appointment is not a right it is concession and only first official wife can nominate the family member for the same.
Anyway compassionate appointment cannot be claimed now.
Srikant G
(Querist) 04 October 2014
Sudhir sir compassionate appointment why not claimed sir
first wife son already have government job
and his sister married
but second wife son his age 21and his sister age is 23
ajay sethi
(Expert) 04 October 2014
1) second wife has no right to her deceased husband property as marriage was performed during subsistence of earlier marriage
2) yes second wife son has rights over property
3) chances of compassionate appointment are bleak as no application was made for 4 years on demise on father .
Srikant G
(Querist) 04 October 2014
ajay sir for job purpose his take any permission from first wife ?
is get job guarantee or not?
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 05 October 2014
Person hiding facts is bound to get half advise which may not be suitable.
It is now only you compassionate job has been given. So no claim and argument on that. Govt has no provision for giving multiple jobs for death of a one employee. So let the children of illegal wife be aged 21 and 23 years. They have no claim on earth for compassionate job, even if first wife give NOC.
You asked "is get job guarantee". Refusal of job is guaranteed unless some officer is willing to put his own job in peril.
Matter is not even worth the cost of stationary and postage.
ajay sethi
(Expert) 05 October 2014
compassionate appointment is matter of discretion not right . there is no guarantee that you will get job on compassionate grounds
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 05 October 2014
It is difficult for the Children of second wife to get compensatory appointment .
Rajendra K Goyal
(Expert) 05 October 2014
It is difficult for the Children of second wife to get compensatory appointment .
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 05 October 2014
I partially disagree with Mr Goyal and Mr Sethi. Compassionate appointment in this case is not difficult it is impossible.
I reiterate.
Matter is not even worth the cost of stationary and postage.
However children of second (illegal) wife can stake claim on other property.
Srikant G
(Querist) 05 October 2014
Hi Sudhir kumar sir i am not understanding
Matter is not even worth the cost of
stationary and postage.
i am in karnataka how to get father jobs where i to go sir please tell me step by step help me
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 05 October 2014
Father died.
One son got the compassionate job.
chapter is closed.
None else can be considered again for compassionate appointment.
Even one compassionate appointment is a concession and you expect two persons to be appointed for death of one employee?
P. Venu
(Expert) 05 October 2014
Prima facie, it appears that the Government servant had died while in service.
If so, the second widow is also entitled to proportionate retirement and pensionary benefits.
santhosh.g.
(Expert) 05 October 2014
children from the second marriage can claim the share in the property or other annulments legally .As per the various judgements 2nd wife of a government servant can claim for the share in the pension
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 05 October 2014
agreed with Mr Venu, Mr Santosh G.
share of pension may be admissible.
share of property may be admissible.
all these are enforceable rights.
But the author is asking about chances of compassionate appointment for a child of second wife while child of first wife has already got compassionate.
It is neither part of pension nor part of property of deceased.
It is not at all admissible. No second candidate [that too after 4 years] can be considered.
Isaac Gabriel
(Expert) 05 October 2014
No doubt,the second wife or marriage is void.But the request by the illegitimate sons or daughters for compassionate
appointment is justified.The second marriage is void ,but not the family.So,the the indigent circumstances of both families have to be considered, and cannot be straightaway rejected pointing out the facility availed by the first family. The the intention of the scheme is to protect the family of the deceased employee,be it legitimate or illegitimate.In the eye of law,no family should be left in the lurch on the demise of the Government servant.They can stake the claim with the department and pursue it by filing Writ Petition.
Srikant G
(Querist) 05 October 2014
Sudhir sir i tell you first family sons is in already government job but is get own that is not father compassionate job
compassionate job no one take right now
thats way i asking
second wife son can get that job?
that job not take first family son
what is the procedure to get that job
second wife son can get that job after 4 years?
how to get job is coming second wife son or not coming second wife son?
and second family take shear in pension?
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 06 October 2014
No chance of the son from second wife getting a compassionate appointment, let it be clear to the author.
However, family of second marriage can get proportionate pension/property at the benevolance of first wife/family, although not entitled/authorised.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Now you have disclosed the son of first wife is in Govt job.
You hide the fact and suffer incomplete advise. You folly.
Now you have to still live with the reality :-
(I) Second wife is not at all a legal entity. She is not wife even.
(II) Second wife cannot nominate anyone for compassionate appointment.
(III) even if first wife nominates any child of second wife she has to declare the status of entire family including that her son having a Govt job.
(V) even if she does nominates child of second wife still deptt may not consider him.
(VI) ABOVE ALL EVEN IF ALL OTHER FACTORS ARE POSITIVE STILL ONE HAS NO CLAIM FOR COMPASSIONATE JOB AFTER FOUR YEARS OF DEATH. Compassionate appointment is not a succession, it is not an undated cheque and it is not a hidden treasure to be retrieved any time.
prabhakar singh
(Expert) 06 October 2014
In Which year the two marriages were solemnized ?
Srikant G
(Querist) 06 October 2014
25 years back second marriage
30 years back first marriage
Srikant G
(Querist) 06 October 2014
Hi sudhir kumar sir
I am sridhar S/o Chandangouda
My father is working in Gov watershed department in Koppal my father is dead in 05/09/2010
my father having 2 family
1.First family
1.Basamma W/o Chandangouda :wife age:xx
2. aramma D/o Chandangouda daughter age:35/36 married
3. vijay S/o Chandangouda :son age:34 years is Gov employe Unmarried
2.Second family is my family this is my family
1.sharada W/o Chandangouda :second Wife age:52
2.Shilpa D/o chandangouda :daughter age :23 Unmarried
3.my sridharS/o Chandangouda Gorebal :Son age :21 years Unmarried
my father government service book in First family names but not my family names
and first family telling no second family in my father only first family is telling
my father all money is take my father first family
but is not give me anything
no property
no job to me
no money
no pension
i am sridhar i can get my father job and property ?
Anirudh
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Dear Srikant,
1. Your father died in 2010. Now 4 years are already over.
2. Second family has no legal recognition, when the first wife is alive.
3. Having said that, in case your father had left any property - then in that you and your sister can have a share. If no property had been left, then you cannot have anything.
4. As regards Govt. job, since the second family is not recognised in law, you cannot get any benefit. In any case, compassionate appointment is given only for immediate need which was in 2010 when your father died. Now it is more than 4 years, no such compassionate appointment will be given now - not even to the first family - therefore forget about the second family.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Agreed with Mr Anirudh.
You started thread in disguise claiming to be inquiring for friends. It was clear ab-inito that it is you own case.
You have been told repeatedly that you are not eligible for Govt job.
You have been told repeatedly that even if you were eligible you are too late to apply.
You cannot apply without nomination of lawfully wedded wife of deceased [not your mother she is not wife in the eye of law]
You have been repeatedly told that you can only stake claim in property.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
This is free advisory forum and you keep asking same question again and again as it costs nothing
MUFT KE CHANDAN GHIS MERE NANDAN
LAMBA TILAK LAGA BABA
PAISA KOEE MANGE TO AGEY AGEY JA BABA
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Now it you still are not convinced then do following steps :-
(I) Apply for compassionate Appointment.
(II) When deptt does not agree then hire a costly lawyer and file a case in Karnataka Administrative Tribunal.
(III) When case is lost in Tribunal, travel to Bengaluru. Afford a hotel there. Hire and advocate and challnage the Tribunal order.
(IV) Even if you win in Tribunal the deptt will make to you come to Bangalore High Court when they challange the order.
(IV) if lost in High Court then travel upto Delhi, afford stay in hotel, hire and advocate in Supreme Court and fight the case.
In this process either you get the job or you learn that you cannot get the job.
In addition :-
(I) All you will be spending a few lakhs of Rupees.
(II) Getting humiliation for your mother for repeatedly being argued in court that she is not wife.
(III) Lose attention to work hard to get a job and earn for the family.
Advocate. Arunagiri
(Expert) 06 October 2014
The second marriage may be void, but the children of the second wife are legitimate. These children are entitled for the share of the father's property.
Sridhar S/o Chandangouda Gorebal :Son age:21 years, is having all such eligibility to apply for the compassionate appointment.
Apply ASAP, and come back to us with the feed back.
Isaac Gabriel
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Regarding the admisibility of pension to second wife,the link will help to ascertain the position
Isaac Gabriel
(Expert) 06 October 2014
The Judgement:
W.P.(MD)No.7817 of 2011 Madras HC decided on 26-08-2014
Anirudh
(Expert) 06 October 2014
There is specific provision in the Tamil Nadu Pension Rules and that is why the Madras HC had given such a decision.
The father of the querist here has worked in Koppal (probably Karnataka State). Therefore, unless such a provision is there in the Pension Rules under Karnataka Government, the decision of Madras HC will have no application.
In any case, the question of compassionate appointment at this distant date is clearly ruled out.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
@ Mr Gabriel
The author is not staking any claim on anything other than compassionate job.
He is not eligible for the same.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
I always have the pleasure to agree with Mr Arunagiri.
But in this case I cannot resist from holding a different view [though hoping to be happy if proved wrong]
(I) death is not immediate it is four year old. This itself dubs the merit if any is there in the case.
(II) he is not part of the family recorded in service record.
(III)The official recorded wife may not sponsor him for compassionate job.[He never stated that she agrees to help him]
(IV) Even if she is magnanimous the sponsors him then she admits him to be part of single family and in such case one son being Govt servant is hurdle.
(V) death is not immediate it is four year old. This itself dubs the merit if any is there in the case.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
SO this young boy should instead of wasting energy on futile project should concentrate on finding a job (may be govt job)and not to waste huge amount of money.
Guest
(Expert) 06 October 2014
You first get the Clearance Letters from the Legal Heirs of First Wife of your Father and Start Proceeding with Application with Concerned Dept on Compassionate grounds.Though the Possiblities were said to be Remote the Efforts would have its own Results.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
If so many experts feel that he should try after four years of death, without being part of family in service record then let him proceed.
Atleast some lawyers will be richer.
Advocate. Arunagiri
(Expert) 06 October 2014
I am also happy to have a healthy discussion when my opinion is disagreed by my friend Mr.Sudhir Kumar.
Now let me answer to the points raised:
(I) death is not immediate it is four year old. This itself dubs the merit if any is there in the case.
Death occurred in 2010, but the boy was minor at that time and attained majority in 2011 or 12 only. His present age is 21 only. So, this boy can apply within three years of attaining 18 age.
(II) he is not part of the family recorded in service record.
Naturally, this boy will not be on record.
(III)The official recorded wife may not sponsor him for compassionate job.[He never stated that she agrees to help him]
The first wife need not give consent to this boy. But, the first wife can object if she is having eligible son or daughter to get compassionate job. But in this case, there is no competition to this boy. See the details of the children of the first wife.
(IV) Even if she is magnanimous the sponsors him then she admits him to be part of single family and in such case one son being Govt servant is hurdle.
This can not be treated as a single family. It should be treated as two families having a common man "father". So, the son of the first wife employed will not be a hurdle for this boy.
(V) death is not immediate it is four year old. This itself dubs the merit if any is there in the case.
My reply to the point I applies to this point IV also.
I am discussing about the eligibility only. Whether he gets the job or not depends upon the vacancy in that department.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
"Death occurred in 2010, but the boy was minor at that time and attained majority in 2011 or 12 only. His present age is 21 only. So, this boy can apply within three years of attaining 18 age."
Agreed but his mother was never minor. In any case he was nearing `18 year of age when death tool place
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
"(II) he is not part of the family recorded in service record.
Naturally, this boy will not be on record."
SO he will not be considered also.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
"The first wife need not give consent to this boy. But, the first wife can object if she is having eligible son or daughter to get compassionate job. But in this case, there is no competition to this boy. See the details of the children of the first wife."
It is the official wife who has to apply
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
"This can not be treated as a single family. It should be treated as two families having a common man "father". So, the son of the first wife employed will not be a hurdle for this boy."
If he is not part of single family the he is not part of family. So he has no claim.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
"I am discussing about the eligibility only. Whether he gets the job or not depends upon the vacancy in that department. "
I AM DISCUSSING ELIGIBILITY AS WELL AS ADMISSIBILITY. THE VACANCY POSITION IS SUBSEQUENT
Guest
(Expert) 06 October 2014
@Author You need not make any Advocate Richer for making your attempts.Still I advise you to make your attempt On Compassionate Grounds with the Consent of your Father's First Wife's Family.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 06 October 2014
COME WHAT MAY
I CANNOT AGREE AND ADVISE THIS BOY TO WASTE HIS YOUTH IN COMPASSIONATE JOB MATTER. (due to the sympathy I may have for him).
HE HS ALL INGREDIENTS OF INELIGIBILITY.
I DO NOT THINK HE HAS NO CAPABILITY TO FIND ANY OTHER JOB (may not be Govt job).
Anirudh
(Expert) 06 October 2014
Dear Mr. Sudhir,
If I may request you, my only request would be: Pl. do not break your head any more. I don't think that it is any more a legal discussion.
Guest
(Expert) 06 October 2014
@ Author My Replies were Precisely and Exclusively For You and if you are suggested with better job opportunities by Excellent People I do not wish to interfere.All the best.
Raj Kumar Makkad
(Expert) 08 October 2014
Well advised by experts hence no more to add.
T. Kalaiselvan, Advocate
(Expert) 09 October 2014
Expert Mr. Anirudh has rightly cautioned expert Mr.Sudhir Kumar to not to break his any further on this good for nothing issue, because the author does not want to understand, he keeps repeating his story like a parrot. What Mr. Isac Gabriel quoted will not apply to this case. What Mr. Arunagiri quoted also will not apply here because a government servant may have plenty of families, the privilege will be accorded to one only recognised family, i.e, whichever is on service records.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 09 October 2014
I do share the concern of Mr Kalaiselvan and Mr Anirudh. I was trying to guide him because if falling in hands of a greedy lawyer, unaware of service matters, he can get fleeced and quantity of such like persons in profession is more than zero.
Guest
(Expert) 09 October 2014
Dear Author, Humanitarian and Compassionate Grounds Exist when unusual or disproportionate hardship would be caused to a person seeking consideration. Economic and establishment situations alone would not normally constitute grounds for a positive and compassionate recommendation.Situations involving family example parents,children and other family members or relatives or some times it may apply to person not blood related also.(ofcourse I am Proud to accept Being ZERO)
Guest
(Expert) 09 October 2014
Dear Author,Zero is the Alpha the Beginning.Zero is the number of God's Force and Universal Engines,reinforces,amplifies and magnifies the Vibrations of numbers it appears.
Isaac Gabriel
(Expert) 14 October 2014
The link below clarifies
"the dependents of the deceased Government servant include the son and it does not denote whether the son should be a legitimate or illegitimate"
This lead may help you to proceed
http://judis.nic.in/judis_chennai/qrydisp.aspx?filename=27092
Guest
(Expert) 14 October 2014
Well Advised by Senior Expert Mr.Isaac Gabriel Thank You Sir.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 19 October 2014
do the above provision allow consideration of compassionate job for such son after four years of death and without application from officially registered wife.
Sudhir Kumar, Advocate
(Expert) 19 October 2014
@ author
now please act as advised
(I) Apply for compassionate Appointment.
(II) When deptt does not agree then hire a costly lawyer and file a case in Karnataka Administrative Tribunal.
(III) When case is lost in Tribunal, travel to Bengaluru. Afford a hotel there. Hire and advocate and challnage the Tribunal order.
(IV) Even if you win in Tribunal the deptt will make to you come to Bangalore High Court when they challange the order.
(IV) if lost in High Court then travel upto Delhi, afford stay in hotel, hire and advocate in Supreme Court and fight the case.
In this process either you get the job or you learn that you cannot get the job.
In addition :-
(I) All you will be spending a few lakhs of Rupees.
(II) Getting humiliation for your mother for repeatedly being argued in court that she is not wife of your father.
(III) Lose attention to work hard to get a job and earn for the family.
Srikant G
(Querist) 09 December 2022
Hi sir
My name is srikant karnataka high Court ordered second wife Childers can have rights to eligible for government job what I do the next step sir please help me
Dr J C Vashista
(Expert) 10 December 2022
New Pandora of this thread after 19 October 2014, where experts have already obliged you sufficiently.
Prima facie it is a time pass post therefore it would be appropriate to close this thread.
However, if you have any problem / issue / concern still outstanding for the last more than 8 years of brain storming by experts on this platform, it would be appropriate to contact, consult and engage a local prudent lawyer for proper appreciation of facts / documents, professional advise and necessary proceeding.
P. Venu
(Expert) 20 December 2022
The Supreme Court has since held in the case of Mukesh Kumar vs. Union of India (Judgment dated 24th February 2022) that the illegitimate Child also could be considered for compassionate appointment -
"9. While compassionate appointment is an exception to the constitutional guarantee
under Article 16, a policy for compassionate appointment must be consistent with the
mandate of Articles 14 and 16. That is to say, a policy for compassionate appointment,
which has the force of law, must not discriminate on any of the grounds mentioned in
Article 16(2), including that of descent. In this regard, ‘descent’ must be understood
to encompass the familial origins of a person.5 Familial origins include the validity of
the marriage of the parents of a claimant of compassionate appointment and the
claimant’s legitimacy as their child. The policy cannot discriminate against a person
only on the ground of descent by classifying children of the deceased employee as
legitimate and illegitimate and recognizing only the right of legitimate descendant.
Apart from the fact that strict scrutiny would reveal that the classification is suspect,
as demonstrated by this Court in V.R. Tripathi, it will instantly fall foul of the
constitutional prohibition of discrimination on the ground of descent. Such a policy is
violative of Article 16(2).
5 See, Gazula Dasaratha Rama Rao v. State of Andhra Pradesh and Ors. (1961) 2 SCR 931.
10. We note with approval the decision of the Delhi High Court in Union of India v.
Pankaj Kumar Sharma, MANU/DE/3959/2014, WP(C) No.9008/2014 dt 19.04.2014 to which
one of us (Justice S. Ravindra Bhat) was a party, which held that descent cannot be
6
a ground for denying employment under the scheme of compassionate appointments.
Speaking through Sanghi J., the Court held:
“22. The Court is of opinion that - apart from being textually sound - understanding
'descent' in terms of prohibiting discrimination against a person on the basis of
legitimacy, or on the basis of his mother's status as a first or second wife, fits within
the principles underlying Article 16(2). Not only is one's descent, in this sense, entirely
beyond one's control (and therefore, ought not to become a ground of Statesanctioned disadvantage), but it is also an established fact that children of 'second'
wives, whether counted as illegitimate or legitimate, have often suffered severe social
disadvantage. Another significant observation here is that at the entry level -
"legitimacy" is and cannot be a ground for denial of public employment. For these
reasons, this Court is of the opinion that the Petitioner's regulation violates Article
16(2).”
11. Given the above, we hold that the issue arising for consideration, in this case, is
covered by the judgment of this Court in Union of India and Ors. v. V.K. Tripathi
and consequently the judgment and order dated 18.01.2018 of the High Court of
Judicature at Patna passed in CWJC No. 18153 of 2017 is set aside. As we have held
that appellant No.1, Shri Manish Kumar, cannot be denied consideration under the
scheme of compassionate appointments only because he is the son of the second
wife, there shall be a direction to consider his case as per the extant policy. The
Authorities shall be entitled to scrutinize whether the application for compassionate
appointment fulfils all other requirements in accordance with the law. The process of
consideration of the application shall be completed within a period of three months
from today.
12. The appeal is accordingly allowed. Parties shall bear their own costs"
