Unreasonable demand by public sector bank
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
This query is : Resolved
Dear Experts,
For opening of new savings account a Public Sector Bank manager is putting forth these unreasonable demands:
1) Not accepting photocopy of PAN Card as proof of identity. Wants all the following three conditions to be fullfilled for proof of identity:
a) photocopy of PAN Card
b) introduction by an existing account holder
c) photocopy of identity card issued by employer.
2) Not accepting photocopy of latest monthly telephone bill of BSNL landline as proof of address. Saying latest RBI guidlines are against accepting only photocopy of telephone bill of BSNL landline as proof of address. Wants all the following three conditions to be fullfilled for proof of address:
a) photocopy of telephone bill of BSNL landline
b) photocopy of first page(that has name and address clearly mentioned) of passbook of another nationalised bank.
c) letter from employer stating the address.
As per my understanding getting a savings account opened in public sector bank is citizen's right. Even unemployed can get a savings account. Then how come all these irrelevant and unreasonable demands by bank demanding for identity card and letter issued by employer?
Can anyone provide me the relevant RBI guidlines? Will approaching banking ombudsman or doing RTI help? Any approach or idea to implement that will bind down the Public Sector Bank manager to open the savings account will be appreciated.
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 09 January 2012
You says “Even unemployed can get a savings account”
I agree with you. The Bank do open a/c of unemployed.
Bank do insist of introduction of an another a/c holder. Nothing wrong in it.
Proof of address in form of Ration Card, Latest Property tax bill, or Society Maintenance bill, or Electricity Bill needed as residential proof.
Like a PASS PORT is citizen’s right, but giving your Photo ID, Residence proof, and introduction is a valid and ;lawful requirements of Bank.
Considering large Number of Cyber Crime, fraud, . 138 Chq Reb cases, Deposing and withdrawing money by false name is on increase, and if Bank is more cautious, it is OK.
These are NOT unreasonable demands:
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Sir with due respect it would have been better if you had replied from legal point than a prophetic and philosophical answer justifying the bank. What is the legal liablity of the introducer? What is the legal interest of bank in getting introduction? Is it not limited to identitfiying the person? PAN Card has identified that person. Where is the problem?
A person is unemployed, living in rented accomodation(right to reside anywhere in India is a fundamental right, not legally necessary to purchase own accomodation and pay property tax etc.) and knows nobody who is already an existing account holder in bank. He has PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Will he not get a savings account? What is his legal deficiency?
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Pan card is freely available for Rs. 95/-
My reply to each and every question is up to the legal point, and you show me any wording that had no material relevancy, “and out of
Prophetic and philosophical nature. “ that you allege.
As I observe, the moment, a true and correct answer cannot be digested by queryier he start charging expert with any allegations.
All legal requirements cannot be as you expect, LAW MAY GO AGAINST YOU ALSO.
All our answers cannot be favorable to you.
you have to bear with the answer.
You are free to accept it or reject it, and there are thousands of experts and lawyers to Reply you.
I will say, what I believe is true and correct, and the same is supplied to you as my reply.
Just by my saying something, facts are not going to change.
Neither you lose anything, nor do I get anything by misguiding you.
I hereby try to show you the true and correct fact, that include law, practical analysis of the law with fact, and it's usefulness, weigh pros and cons, that benefit you. Some Legal Actions may not be economical or beneficial; A person may Lose a Pound to get a Penny.
We try to suggest the sweetest, shortest, cheapest and easiest way to achieve your aim and objectives, with our vast experience and GK. The choice is yours to take it or leave it,
in case you doubt our honesty, or guidance, please feel free and expose us. You are welcome to do so.
Let at least 2% [or 10 in number] of such quarries say no confidence in this expert, I will immediately stop giving this free consultations.
I too cannot tolerate unnecessary bad remarks, after honestly serving you, free of charge, and without any motive.
I am not here to say Goody Goody to all, whether they are Right or Wrong, Whether they are Chor or Honest.
I have to spell correctly, THE LIARS ARE VERY SWEET and the TRUTH IS ALWAYS SOUR.
What help you is Sour, not sweet.
Adv Shroff
09-01-2012
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Sir with due respect, nothing personal against you has been alleged. If the same has been assumed or construed by you, it is regrettable and regretted.
"Pan card is freely available for Rs. 95/-" Does this make PAN Card loose its legal validity as proof of identity issued by State in the eyes of law?
What is the legal liablity of the introducer? Is it not limited to identitfiying the person? PAN Card has identified that person. Where is the problem in the eyes of law?
A person is unemployed, living in rented accomodation(right to reside anywhere in India is a fundamental right, not legally necessary to purchase own accomodation and pay property tax etc.) and knows nobody who is already an existing account holder in bank. He has PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Will he not get a savings account? What is his legal deficiency in eyes of law?
I welcome your TRUTH and SOUR answers as seen by law.
Deepak Nair
(Expert) 09 January 2012
You may understand that the banks ask for such documents as a security measure. The bank is justified in asking for certain documents as identity, address and age proofs.
Further, it would be easy for you if you befriend an account holder of hte bank and let him introduce you to the bank.
Mr.Shroff is absolutely right in giving such comments.
You cannot sue a bank or file complaint against a bank for asking documents to prove your identity, wearabouts etc.
If not that bank, then you can go and open account in any other bank.
There are a number of banks functioning all over india.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Please understand the legal crux of the query. I summarize it as below for better understanding of all:
1) PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Where is the legal problem and legal deficiency in eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
2) What is the legal liablity of the introducer? Is it not limited to identitfiying the person? PAN Card has well identified that person. Where is the legal problem in the eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
3) A person is unemployed, living in rented accomodation(right to reside anywhere in India is a fundamental right, not legally necessary to purchase own accomodation and pay property tax etc.) and knows nobody who is already an existing account holder in bank. He has PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Will he not get a savings account? What is his legal deficiency in eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
Anirudh
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
You are right when you say that getting a bank account opened with the Public Sector Bank is a citizen's right.
But that right can be exercised subject to fulfilling certain rules, regulations, formalities and conditions.
Any Tom, Dick and Harry (although a citizen of the country) cannot get an account opened without fulfilling the requisite formalities and complying with the requirements.
The Bank has to satisfy about the identify of the person.
So long as the bank is not comfortable it cannot open any account.
So, a person who wants to get his account opened cannot dictate any terms to the bank.
Even after submitting the above proofs, the Bank can also ask for additional proof, if in its opinion it requires the same. The person wishing to get the Account opened cannot dictate terms to the bank - at least prior to getting the account opened.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh and all experts,
I agree that the right is not absolute and can be exercised subject to fulfilling certain rules, regulations, formalities and conditions. I think every reasonable person would agree that these powers(rules, regulations, formalities and conditions) are not limitless, have to be reasonable and not wider than the rights of every citizen. Income Tax laws and this right flows from Article 21. Let us try to catch the legal crux of the question. I rephrase and mention it again below:
1) PAN Card is issued by the State.
2) BSNL landline telephone bill is issued by the State.
3) Savings Account is to be opened by the State
Can the State(bank) legally say that it is not satisfied by the proof of identity(PAN Card) issued by State(Income Tax Department)?
Can the State(bank) legally say that it is not satisfied by the proof of address(BSNL landline telephone bill) issued by State(BSNL)?
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 09 January 2012
There was not a single building on a plot of land
registered sale deed, flats on that land, are mortgaged, and crore of rupees, deposited in fraud bank a/c, banished.
In one of my case, all papers of employment cert, pan card, r card, I tax Returns, Regd sale deed Agreement, were used, all bogus, and culprit taken away Crores from Dena bank. Bhayandar
15 staffs of bank suspended, dismissed, for opening forged bank a/c in last 3 years in Mira bhy area,
nationalized bank do not pass housing loan to anyone in this area between 1998 till 2008, and even now. There are 15000 building with 1L Flats, no one get bank loan on their flat property.
Document forged looks genuine,
Bank manager looses their job/ transferred as negligent in opening bank a/c, they are held responsible for it.
Crores of Rupees, economical offences committed by opening forged bank a/c, all I said is not “and out of prophetic and philosophical nature.” As you alleges. These are hard facts.
Legally entitled: alone do not work
known person's introduction is a must, and the bank double check it, or their staff are penalized
THINK IT OVER.
Nadeem Qureshi
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Mr. Sharoff is rightly explained
Anirudh
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
Yes, the State(bank) can legally say that it is not satisfied by the proof of identity(PAN Card) issued by State(Income Tax Department) and it can legally say that it is not satisfied by the proof of address(BSNL landline telephone bill) issued by State(BSNL).
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh then either we have a failed State who does not believe in itself or we have absurd law.
Dear Adv. Shroff with due respect I would humbly disagree with your reply. Your reply seems to be out of context and deviating from the question of law at hand in this query.
Please note that you are already accepting that the fraudster had submitted EVERY document as bogus. There is seperate due process of law to be followed to deal with fraudsters and cannot be legally mixed with the account opening process which is matter of right of every citizen.
Anirudh
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
You can deem anything as you wish. But the fact remains. Before opening of the Account, BANK is the MASTER!
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh the Bank(State) is the master subject to the Constitution and the laws flowing from it. Or is it not a fact or you disagree with this fact too!
Anirudh
(Expert) 09 January 2012
By insisting on such kind of proof to satisfy itself about the antecedents of the prospective customer, the Bank (State) in no way infringes any provisions of the Constitution. While the Bank (State) has to act within the Constitution, its actions in this regard cannot be termed by any stretch of imagination as unconstitutional.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 09 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh Income Tax Act, various banking regulation acts and opening of savings account flowing from Article 21 of Constitution. Laws to restrict/regulate right to life/liberty have to be reasonable i.e. least restrictive. The State is to abide by the Constitution at all times. Law to regulate the fundamental right should pass the test of doctrine of Strict Scrutiny, else the very purpose of "guarantee" of fundamental rights under the Constitution may get defeated. The following are the conditions under strict scrutiny to be met by the legislation:
1) The State has the burden of proving that its challenged legislation/policy is constitutional.
2) The State must show that its legislation/policy is necessary to achieve a compelling state interest.
3) If points 1 and 2 are proved then the State must then demonstrate that the legislation/ policy is NARROWLY tailored to achieve the intended result.
You may read about Supreme Court judgement on Strict Scrutiny at http://lawandotherthings.blogspot.com/2009/08/justice-sinhas-final-attempt-to-clear.html
If you read my first post in this query you will find that bank is putting unreasonable burdern on applicant by asking for multiple documents proving the SAME facts. How can a citizen be put under additional/extra burdern in matter of his right(savings account opening) when there exists no deficiency in existing documents he is supplying?
Hope you are able to see the point now.
Anirudh
(Expert) 09 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
If there are fundamental rights for citizens, so there are certain fundamental rights for the Banks under Art. 19(1)(g).
One's fundamental right cannot trample upon another.
There is no compulsion on you by the Bank concerned that you should get the account open with it and also comply with its strict conditions.
You have the freedom (fundamental right) not to subject yourselves to what you consider "unreasonable" demands of the bank. Similarly, the Bank can also have the freedom (fundamental right) not to entertain you unless its minimum conditions are met!
Each of you can go your own respective way with complete freedom. No compulsion on either side. No compromise on either side. No one surrenders to another. So simple and straight.
Yes, if you still feel that the bank is infringing on your fundamental rights, then you have every right as a citizen of this country to establish your rights through the Court of law. The bank will also contest its points. Naturally, the Court will adjudicate the respective positions. Parties will abide by the Court decision. Fair enough. Proceed.
Clarity will emerge only from confusion.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 10 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh I agree with your opinion that one can approach court anytime. Courts will surely adjudicate the matter. Also agree with your opinion that unless we discuss the matter there is no clarity and clarity emerges from confusion.
If you think again deeply about my query, you will find that citizen is not trampling any fundamental right of the bank. He is supplying the necessary information by furnishing genuine and valid documents so that he can deposit his savings in the bank account. Instead the bank is being unreasonable by demanding multiple type of documents for the very same piece of information which every citizen may not always have.
As I have already said and also agreed by you that even unemployed(also his freeedom under Article 19(1)(g)) can open savings account since it is citizen's right, it is beyond imagination how asking for identity proof and residence proof issued from employer be termed as reasonable demand by bank?
Also the bank(State) cannot legally say to the applicant to go to another bank.
Anyways I appreciate your participation in this query and thank you and all experts whole heartedly.
Anirudh
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
I did not say that you are trampling on the fundamental rights of another. All I said was that one's fundamental right cannot trample on another. It can be from your side or from the bank's side. There is neutrality in my statement.
You say that "the citizen is supplying the necessary information by furnishing genuine and valid documents".
That is your feeling. You should appreciate that "What you consider as necessary information" may fall very much short from the expectation of the other party (bank) which has to satisfy itself before opening the account.
The bank never asked you (either legally or illegally) to go to another bank. That is an argument given by me to show that you are not being compelled to open an account with a particular bank with conditions which you consider to be unreasonable.
Whether employed, unemployed, begger, anybody has a right to open account. But that right can be exercised after fulfilling the requirements of the bank which wants them. Yes, the unemployed would have satisfied the requirements. That is the precise point which is in favour of the bank. It can say, we have opened account even for an unemployed based on the documents which he supplied to our satisfaction. But if an employed does not supply documents to our satisfaction how can we open an account. In fact, nobody including the RBI can compel a bank to open an account without the bank getting satisfied about the prospective clients credentials.
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Dear Ano,
My two sons,having no income, were student, have bank a/c with chq book, atm cards.
My next door neighbor, a tenant, having PAN card, phone bill, business and good introduction, was denied bank a/c:NO HOME.
Bank said, those having no ownership Flat, or residing here only for last six months, can commit fraud and run away. We do not want to bank with risky persons. Bank have hundreds of such example, and criminal proceedings don't help.
Now Bank want Photo, R card, confirm, he reside for over two years, and I appreciate, Bank take care, to guard against Cyber crime, economic offenders, and reduce crime.
Bank provides Internet Baking, Debit & ATM cards, loans, AND CERTAINLY VERIFY YOUR PERMANENT OWNERSHIP RESIDENCE, STATUS, PROPER INTRODUCTION.
WHERE IS THE lAW, SPECIFYING THOSE REQUIREMENT?
IT IS A PRACTICE, AND FREEDOM FOR BANK TO HAVE THEIR OWN YARDSTICK TO SUCCESSFULLY OPERATE A VERY SERIOUS BUSINESS, MILLIONS OF CRORES OF RUPEES OF TRANSACTIONS DAILY.
So many banks have to close down,in India, and Public lost their hard earned money!!
UNNECESSARY ARGUMENT TO PROVE YOURSELF RIGHT DO NOT CHANGE FACTS. ONE MUST ACCEPT THE REALITY. LAW ALONE CANT WALK. ONE HAVE TO PROVE ELIGIBILITY & QUALIFY TO AVAIL THE BENEFIT OF LAW.
If Bank take EXTRA CARE, We should be proud about it.
prabhakar singh
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Many of US think we should have rights without rules.
The desired rules are given below:
Savings Bank Accounts
Rules & Regulations
1. As per the extant Reserve Bank of India (RBI) guidelines, which are mandatory, photographs of all applicant(s) / Power of Attorney holders (i.e. who are authorized to operate the account(s)) should be furnished to the bank.
2. As per extant Government of India (GOI) guidelines, PAN / Form No.60/61 (Where PAN is not available) is required to be furnished.
3. Savings Bank A/c (SB A/c) can not be opened for business purposes as per RBI directives and hence SB a/c should be used to route transactions of only non-business / non-commercial nature. In the
event of occurrence of such transactions or any other such transactions that may be construed as dubious or undesirable, the Bank reserves the right to unilaterally freeze operations in such accounts.
4. The balance in the account must adhere to the minimum monthly /
quarterly average balance stipulation laid down by the Bank and communicated to you at the time of opening of the account.
Non maintenance of such monthly/quarterly average balance will attract applicable penalty on a quarterly basis and on a date determined by the bank.
5. If there is no transaction by the account holder in the account
continuously for 24 months, the account automatically gets classified as a ‘dormant / inoperative account’ whereupon further debit transactions are not permitted in the ordinary course. A request for activation of the account has to be made by the customer and the customer is subject
afresh to KYC norms (proof of address).
6. If the balance in the account becomes zero and remains so continuously for three months or more, the Bank reserves to itself the right to close the account without any obligation to intimate the customer.
7. Satisfactory conduct of the account entails maintaining stipulated
monthly/ quarterly average balance as well as sufficient balance to honour cheques issued to third parties. If there are high incidences (i.e. more than 3 cheque returns for want of funds) to the contrary, the Bank reserves the right to close the account under intimation to the customer.
8. Any special instructions, both financial and non-financial in nature, like
standing instructions, stop payment instructions, issuance of cheque
books, issuance of duplicate ATM Cards / PIN etc. must be communicated in writing. Otherwise, it shall not be binding on the
Bank to comply with such instructions.
9. Any change of address should be immediately communicated in writing to the Bank. The bank will be sending through courier or post from time
to time PIN mailers and any other notices / correspondences. Hence, it is incumbent upon the applicant(s) to intimate change in mailing address, if any, immediately without any loss of time. The bank will not
be responsible for any loss, damage, or consequences for wrong delivery of the above items arising out of non-intimation of change in mailing address.
10.The account number is to be quoted in pay in slips / cheques issued by theaccount holder and in all the correspondences with the bank.
11.The account holder(s) is / are expected to verify the entries made in the
pass book and draw the attention of the bank to any errors or omissions that might be discovered. The bank does not accept any
responsibility for any loss arising out of failure on the part of the account holder to carry out verification of entries in the pass book and to point out such error and / or omission within one month from the date
of updation of pass book.
12. Alterations, if any, on cheques are required to be authenticated by the
drawer’s full signature against each such alteration. The Bank reserves
the right to refuse payment of cheques that have been altered in any way unless the alteration is authenticated by the drawer under full signature as per specimen on record with the Bank. Cheques should be
drawn in such a way as to prevent alteration after issue and the drawer’s signature should be uniform with that on record.
13.No overdrawing is permissible in accounts.
14.The bank has the authority to debit the accounts to recover any
amount credited erroneously.
15. Collection of outstation instruments entails collection charges. The bank
does not accept any responsibility for loss, delay, mutilation or interception of the instruments in postal or courier transit.
16. The total numbers of withdrawals from a savings bank account
during any quarter, whether by cheque or otherwise should not exceed 25 in all. In case of cheque, the date of payment and not the date of the cheque, will be taken as the date of withdrawal for the purpose.
17.Interest will be credited every six months on or about 30th September and 31st
March calculated on daily product basis. No interest will be allowed unless the amount accrued during the half year amounts to
Re.1/-
18. 18. When a customer wants his / her operative account at one
branch to be transferred to another branch, he / she has to give his / her request in writing along with, ATM Card, unused cheque books. The bank will close the account and arrange to open a new account at the other branch and will issue new cheque book, new ATM Card, etc.
19.Local cheques, etc., may be tendered for collection sufficiently early in the day as required vis-à-vis the local clearing house times. Drawals against clearing cheques will be normally permitted only against cleared balances as per clearing house rules.
20.Please change the PIN for ATMoperations, frequently. Please don’t keep the blank signed cheque books. Keep the cheque books in lock and key.
21. Immediate credit of outstation / local cheques up to Rs.15000/- is permitted to satisfactorily operated Savings Bankaccount holders. For further details, contact bank branch.
22.Nomination facility is available.
23. Pass book will be given to all SB account holders. If the customers
want statement of accounts, then it will be issued on specific request and on payment of necessary charges.
24.The Bank is a member of Banking Codes and Standards Board of India
and committed to honour the covenants of its codes. Customers can get a copy from the branch and the same is also available in the
Bank’s website www.tmb.in. Similarly the Bank has a Fair Practice
Code and Policy on Deposits which are also available in the same
manner.
25.The opening / operating / closing of any account are subject to the
extant Know Your Customer (KYC) guidelines drafted in line with the RBI norms.
26.The Bank reserves the right to close account(s), which according to the
Bank, is / are not conducted satisfactorily, after due notice to the
customers without assigning any reasons thereof.
27.The Bank reserves to itself the right to alter, delete or add any of these
rules at any time without prior intimation to individual customers or to
refuse to open an account or to close any account. However such charges will be posted in the Bank’s website and in the Notice Board of the branches.
28. Opening of the Savings Bank Account tantamount to deemed acceptance of the aforesaid rules and regulations as well as the fact of being informed about the various service charges being levied by the Bank and the terms and conditions guiding related products and services.
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Prabhakarji, Lots of Thanks, for Detailed Rules of S/b A/c
"Saab, apna Ano, bank ?a/c me gafla kar ke bhag gaya to kidhar pakdega?? "
I have one case wherea clerk, deposited on diff dates 18 Lakhs of his employer Co, and ran away, till date could nt be trced. Criminal Proceeding of little help.
If bank had not opened the a/c ot this rental resident, wth bogus introduction, , That Company would have not duped his amount.
After all it burdens all honest citizen, directly or indirectly we have to pay for all these.
Help Bank control such Bogus A/c Openers.
It is a Social Service too.
prabhakar singh
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Why so many rules come,only because of us.KYC [know your client] is the result of several impersonated bank a/c by one individual became practice.Even Demats a/c were found multiple,not only this people had even multiple pan to check,penalty was introduced.Photo demand is also the result of impersonation otherwise even in sub registrar's office photo was not required.
We talk of rights but we never talk of our conduct,our responsible behavior,our self discipline,we take rent but do not give receipt,we leave as tenant but do not pay rent,we promise only to default,but we talk of rights'WE THE PEOPLE OF INDIA'
DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Just storm in a tea cup.
Comply with the formalities once than now as per recent directive of RBI, you can open account any where without giving new KYC on the basis of first account.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 10 January 2012
Dear Adv. Anirudh I appreciate your replies. I hope we agree that for "satisfaction" of bank its demands should be reasonable and not burdernsome and limitless on citizens.
Dear Adv. Shroff with due respect I humbly disagree with the tune and direction of your replies. Your replies constantly seem to be speaking the language of bank and not the legal language of an advocate standing for the rights of citizen when you say the following and praising the bank for its shameful and illegal conduct:
"My next door neighbor, a tenant, having PAN card, phone bill, business and good introduction, was denied bank a/c:NO HOME........If Bank take EXTRA CARE, We should be proud about it."
Dear Adv. P. Singh thank you for posting the rules of the bank. With due respect I humbly disagree with the tone of your reply that gives an impression that our freedoms, liberties and rights are subject to the acts of criminals. I would like to say that our freedoms, liberties and rights are not subject to the actions of criminals. If our freedoms, liberties and rights are subject to the action of criminals then why have the laws and the Constitution? Let us scrap it all.
Dear Adv. JSDN if you could elaborate and explain in detail what you are saying. If you could provide the link or copy of that recent directive of RBI which one can follow.
I really appreciate and thank all the experts for talking healthy part in this discussion. Thanking you all once again from my heart for your valuable contributions including those which I disagree with.
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Read today's query??
my friend is a guarantor against vehicle loan , now person who has taken loan has absconded A
bank served notice on loan taker along with guarantor.
pls advice what is legal provision in this regard and what action to be taken against notice to seizure of guarantor property.
ANO: AND ABSCONDED: IF OWN HOUSE, LIVING IN HIS OWNERSHIP FLAT,CHILDREN SCHOOLING IN HIS LOCALITY , WOULD HAVE NOT ABSCONDED!.SO BANK WANT RESIDENCE PROOF.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 10 January 2012
Dear Adv. Shroff with due respect your question is out of context of this query and you are unnecessarily repeating your similar replies again and again trying to justify your opinion.
Those who did Bofors scam and so many thousands of scams openly, they had and have made lot of immovable property, they did not abscond but the money has surely absconded.
Are you contending that the State(banks) should stop opening savings accounts or loans accounts to the citizens who do not own immovable property? Are you contending that our freedoms, liberties and rights are subject to the acts of criminals? If your answer is yes to these questions then I have nothing much further to say.
DEFENSE ADVOCATE.-firmaction@g
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Recent directives of RBI are published last week in all financial newspapers.
You can also visit RBI site it is posted there.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 10 January 2012
Thank you Adv. JSDN for your concise, presice and to the point replies, I will check the RBI website.
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 10 January 2012
"unnecessarily repeating your similar replies again and again trying to justify your opinion"
I never want to justify my opinion.
YOU DIRECTLY MEAN TO SAY, MY OPINION IS FALSE AND NOT JUSTIFIED, IT IS HURTING ME.
I want you to understand where you stand, to help you. I know, once answer is unfavorable, You DISAGREE. if u agree would have never raised query. I don't mind you do not Thank me, Your Bofor is certainly out of context of this query and unnecessarily.
try to take true advice in right spirit, or we expert will take for granted, you do not deserve detailed reply, and we will short cut with yes & no.
We too are proving this free service, under tremendous constrain of our limited time.
But I with Principle to Fully help you, taking this trouble at Personal cost.
ALL THE BEST, AT LEAST LET ME KNOW WHEN YO SUCCEED WITH OPENING A BANK ACCOUNT.
THOUGH IT CAN BE DONE WITHIN A MINUTE, IF I SO DESIRE.
Deepak Nair
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Finally, the conclusin is that:-
"FOLLOW THE DIRECTION OF THE BANK AND PROVIDE THE DOCUMENTS AND REFERENCE WHICH IS ASKED FOR".
If not ready, then you can approach any other bank who might be lenient.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 10 January 2012
Dear Adv. Shroff with due respect I would like to emphasise that nothing has been ever said or is going to be said to mean anything false or hurt your feelings or feelings of any expert. If anything like that has been construed then it is extremely regrettable and regreted.
Bofors etc. examples is in context to your example of "absconding". In Bofors and similar scams etc. etc. involved persons had property as contended by you and did not "absconded" but the money surely absconded!
I do not disagree merely because answer is unfavourable. I disagree with the unreasonable demands of the bank.
Please do not think that I did not thank you, I did thank every experts including your goodself for giving their opinions. If you read my previous replies you will find it.
I appreciate that greatness of all experts for participating on this website. But I would request you to not do this at your "personal cost" unless you are doing it voluntarily under your free will.
I will surely let you know when I succeed in opening account with that particular bank. Let me go thru the RBI directives and related laws first.
Yes you may surely get your account opened within a minute, but it is of no use telling to anybody until you come out with your "secret" that can help citizen's right. If you want this to keep this as secret then what can I say except assumming that telling it is for merely boasting.
Dear Adv. Nair what you are saying of going to different bank is a workaround which has already been done. But the purpose of raising this query is not workarounds but is to find ideas to fight the issue as a matter of citizen's right. If you read my last line in my first post in this query you will find I have said the following "Any approach or idea to implement that will bind down the Public Sector Bank manager to open the savings account will be appreciated."
If you note the previous reply of Adv. Shroff he has claimed at last the following "THOUGH IT CAN BE DONE WITHIN A MINUTE, IF I SO DESIRE." Let us see if he enlightens this forum with his knowledge or wants to keep it a secret!
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 10 January 2012
PM me , or SMS your name . address, bank br if u need personal help, i will do it if you are deserving case.
Forget to change Bank Rules, Bank is right at their place with their Responsibilities, and will not deviate their rule for you , but will open your a/c as a special case on request.
You stop all such words like boasting & all, Person cannot do such a small job of opening s/b a/c and unemployed, should request others, not challenge bank, Laws and experts. All cannot be wrong.
OK IT ENDS OUR DISCUSSION
R.Ramachandran
(Expert) 10 January 2012
Dear Anonymous,
If the requirements of Bank appears to be unreasonable, burdensome and limitless to you, it is your feelings. Bank is not responsible. Bank wants that minimum requirement to be satisfied. Those who satisfy get their account opened, and others don't. As simple as that.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 11 January 2012
Dear Adv. Shroff it is your personal perception about what is "small" or "big" job, it does not make anything small or big. At the best it may make the person declaring things as "small" or "big" job feel reassured and better about himself or his ideas.
A person openly declaring that he can get opened a bank account in a minute but not openly revealing his "secret", what is it if not boasting?
If someone is unemployed by his free choice(his freeedom under Article 19(1)(g)) and financially well taking care of himself, it does not mean he has lost his rights as a citizen.
I thank you for your offer of help over PM or SMS, it is not needed for this "small" job as percieved by you. Neither it is a problem to get an account opened in any bank. This query is raised about unreasonable demands put forth by one particular branch manager of bank. Other reasonable banks are happy to open savings account by PAN card and BSNL landline telephone bill.
Dear Adv. Ramachandran, thank you for expressing your personal feelings and opinion. As advised by Adv. JSDN I will go through the requirements mentioned in KYC guidlines of RBI and see how much this particular branch of bank is deviating from it and what can or cannot be done to deal with this particular branch of a particular bank.
I would like to mention that non of the experts(except Adv. JSDN whose reply among all other replies is closest and most relevant to the question in discussion) have attempted to answer the legal crux of the query, which I had mentioned earlier, I repeat it below:
1) PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Where is the legal deficiency in proving identity and residence in eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
2) What is the legal liablity of the introducer? Is it not limited to identitfiying the person? PAN Card has identified that person. Where is the legal deficiency proving identity in the eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
3) A person is unemployed by his free choice(not legally necessary to be employed, it is his freedom under Article 19(1)(g)), living in rented accomodation(right to reside anywhere in India is a fundamental right, not legally necessary to purchase own accomodation and pay property tax etc.) and knows nobody who is already an existing account holder in bank. He has PAN Card proving his identity and BSNL landline telephone bill proving his address. Where is the legal deficiency for opening savings account in eyes of State(Nationalised bank) and law?
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 11 January 2012
I ended it, "OK IT ENDS OUR DISCUSSION"
From all the discussion, I gather that you are Quite capable to handle this matter, and do not need any expert advise.
I also understand, you are aggrieved against a particular Bank. Your purpose is not "opening bank a/c" but to "teach a lesson & Laws to the said Bank"
We had honestly performed our duty.
Now you start your job to take action, as JSDN advised you.
I/ We usually do not want our clients to loose a Pound to get a Penny. Loss of Time., Money, and Harassment, so reply, a sweet, short, effective way to achieve his objective.Our Clients are our God, and we always try to help, whatever in his favour." My advise to you is with that line of my principle, Live Peacefully, without tension, save your time & money, and don't attend courts, Tarikh pe Tarikh." situation.
Your motive is different, you want to correct Bank", and teach them Law and constitutional Right of citizen against State a Bank.
So it is OK.
Fulfill your desire. it is PIL for u.
All the Best.
& NOW GOOD BYE.
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 11 January 2012
My purpose not teaching a lesson to anybody. It is your personal assumption. My purpose is respecting the sacredness of rights of the citizen. Here lies the difference. For you the Pound is more sacred than the rights of citizen. But were is the problem in disclosing the true legal position?
Anyways I thank you and all the experts for their valuable participation in this discussion even though the legal crux of the query remains unanswered.
prabhakar singh
(Expert) 13 January 2012
Dear Anonymous !
Barring you every one here is wrong.i do not want to be any exception.
The point is that it is misdeed which brings rules and the law.
Faults are elder than law.
Every one does not commit murder then you mean 302 should not be there in IPC.
Every one is not fraud then you mean 420 should not be there in IPC.
Every one is not thief then you mean there should not we 379 in IPC.............................. .........................................................................................................
Querist :
Anonymous
(Querist) 15 January 2012
Dear Adv. P. Singh, with due respect, the question is not whether everyone can be wrong or right. Either is very much possible.
The fact remains that instead of applying their minds to answer the legal crux of the query, many of the experts are keenly interested in trying to justify what they themselves or others are saying. The irrelevant examples put forth also confirm the same.
I have already pointed out that our rights are not subject to the acts of the criminals or their misdeeds. On the contrary you are trying justify the opposite by giving unconnected and out of context examples of criminal penal laws like 302, 420, 379 IPC which come into action only after the crime is done. The applicant for savings bank account has committed no crime. Are you saying that the savings account applicant has to be first subjected to criminal penal laws before opening a bank account! God forbid such a day when our rights, freedoms and liberties have been debased into servitude of such a magnitude.
