Seeking Divorce - Arya Samaj Marriage

Arup... can you throw some light on it!!!

" If if was just a formality and she did not embraced hindusim and continued to live like a muslim, then the formal conversion becomes invalid and is liable to be quashed."

mr sourabh, it is her fundamental right, how she live? it will not be quashed. you are presenting your imagination as law.

" You can apply divorce only @Meerut."

---  no you have options. decide it by talk to her.

@Sunny

My advice is, that don't get confused. Just follow the below steps:

> Discuss with your wife for Mutual Consent Divorce. Mutually decide where to file divorce. I feel if you fiel in Meerut, it would be correct jurisdiction as you are living seperately since after your marriage. Still if court permits Mumbai or Delhi then good for you.

> Go to the court and don't get into the conflict if she converted to muslim faith or not. Just simply file the documents of her conversion and your marriage certificate. File a divorce simply under HMA,1955 Section13B.

> For safeguarding your petition, ask your wife to wear a saree and mangalsutra on the dates when you appear before the judge. :)

My discussion with @arup is on the professional level so don't be confused about that. Law is ever evolving and ever changing institution of the society. There are always different views so it's always open for debates. I've started seperate discussion in a new post for clarity on this topic. Though your questions have already been answered by now still if you wish to follow and know more about this point then check my post::

https://www.lawyersclubindia.com/forum/-EXPERT-OPINION-REQUIRED-I-m-Muslim-OR-Hindu--38447.asp

//peace

/Saurabh.V

Wearing Saree and Mangalsutra is not required to profess Hinduism by a woman.Hinduism can be professed even  while wearing denims and shirts, Salwar and Kameez and not visiting temples. A Hindiu can certainly read Kuran and Bible and take interest in other religions as multi disciplinary studies.  even courts would not require that a woman need to be decorated with Bindi, Sindur and Manglasutra, to profess herself as a Hindu wife: I  have read it in  a judgement, which  at the moment is not there with me. 

@Ambika

I would like to ask you a fundamental question. Are you by any chance a law professional or law graduate?

//peace

/Saurabh.V

Dear Saurabh

your query is irrelavant to my above reply. Does not matter which professiona I am engaged in and what are my academic credentiuals as long as my reply is legally sound, and which it is, I am sure. Let some more Ld. advocates give their opinion on what I have written. As well judgements are read by a very wide range of people, sepecially those who are engaged in muti disciplinary studies. 

@Ambika

Your response shows your high-headedness and your indifferent attitude towards the importance of understanding the law.

Can you answer why Rajiv Gandhi is a Hindu when his father was a Parsi? If you can answer this, may be you are really intellectual enough to respond to a technical legal query and certainly you would also understand my view-point in above post. However, if you cannot answer this, certainly should keep away from mis-guiding people on an online forum.

//peace

/Saurabh.V

@Ambikaji

Wearing Saree and Mangalsutra is not required to profess Hinduism by a woman.Hinduism can be professed even  while wearing denims and shirts, Salwar and Kameez and not visiting temples. A Hindiu can certainly read Kuran and Bible and take interest in other religions as multi disciplinary studies.  even courts would not require that a woman need to be decorated with Bindi, Sindur and Manglasutra, to profess herself as a Hindu wife: I  have read it in  a judgement, which  at the moment is not there with me. 

All these are customs,religious practics.

Yes, you are absolutely right.Look the example of shahrukh khan ,wife gauri Read their lifestyle.

Read article 25-28 of the constitution.

@Saurabh..V

Can you answer why Rajiv Gandhi is a Hindu when his father was a Parsi?

Read article 25

25. Freedom of conscience and free profession, practice and propagation of religion

(1) Subject to public order, morality and health and to the other provisions of this Part, all persons are equally entitled to freedom of conscience and the right freely to profess, practise and propagate religion

(2) Nothing in this article shall affect the operation of any existing law or prevent the State from making any law

(a) regulating or restricting any economic, financial, political or other secular activity which may be associated with religious practice;

(b) providing for social welfare and reform or the throwing open of Hindu religious institutions of a public character to all classes and sections of Hindus Explanation I The wearing and carrying of kirpans shall be deemed to be included in the profession of the Sikh religion Explanation II In sub clause (b) of clause reference to Hindus shall be construed as including a reference to persons professing the Sikh, Jaina or Buddhist religion, and the reference to Hindu religious institutions shall be construed accordingly

@ All

Some weeks back I feel I have already replied to author's same nature query. However I am giving my independent views whether it is for experts and or for layman and or whether it is copied – pasted or independent are all besides the point here and I do not know if I am supposed to please any one person here or colly. to become famous here as @ Saurabh V reminds me in another posts (Mastan’s post) about, point well taken ld. Law Student; but it is better not to remind me at all and take what pleases your colly. intellect for a simple reason no one can claim to know all of Law, shall one claim so and keep away others from replying at all ? NO;


1. Hinduism does not contemplate conversion and does not proselytize.

2. The Arya Samaj which performed the marriage with Vedic rites is a well-known reformed sect of Hindus in Northern India of substantial and increasing importance, the validity of whose marriages it would now be preposterous to question. The Samaj goes back to the Vedas for its inspiration, doctrine and many of its practices. It receives adherents from within and without Hinduism though naturally more readily from twice-born or true Hindus.

3. The following quotations are from Part II, Ch. II of "The Arya Samaj" by Lajpat Rai, a well-known reformist of yore:

The Arya Samaj repudiates caste by birth, 'The Arya Samaj believes that in Vedic times there was no caste by birth in India.' 'Character and conduct alone can decide whether a person is twice-born' (Mahabharata). 'One of the greatest services rendered by the Arya Samaj to the cause of social reform among Hindus is its championship of the rights of the depressed and untouchable classes to be admitted into the Arya Samaj on an equal footing with persons of the highest castes.'

4. A member (read here as spouses who are married) of the Arya Samaj need not break completely with the Hindu social system, but, on the other hand, there is nothing to prevent any twice born Hindu from renouncing his caste or shedding any part of the marriage laws of his caste. Members of the Arya Samaj may validly intermarry and the embarrassments and inconveniences (e.g., those of caste discipline) entailed by the mixed marriage are as immaterial to the legality of the 'marriage' itself as are those entailed by marriage of Non Hindus of different tribes in interior Districts reminded readers as stark illustration.

5. Under the presented briefs circumstances it is necessary to consider the correctness or otherwise of the reasoning given by various writers as well as by the Author himself for holding that the marriage may be a invalid one under the Hindu Law. My observations are that conversion to or from Hinduism is wholly repugnant to Hindu ideas and feelings, that there can be no valid conversion of a non-Hindu to Hinduism, that a Hindu is born and not made, that the Sudhi ceremony of the Arya Samaj sect is the ceremony of bringing those into the fold of Hinduism who had at some earlier time embraced other religion though they were Hindus by birth that Sudhi is not a ceremony of conversion of a non-Hindu by birth into Hinduism (mind it here the authors wife was married under Arya Samaj by performing a simple sudhi), further that a Brahman, Kshatriya or Vaishya cannot accept as wife a woman who is not among the four castes prevailing among Hindus and who is by birth and parentage a Muslim, Christian, Sikh and or a Parsi that according to the Hindu Law the Author's wife could not have been converted to Hinduism in explicit sense is my core view, that assuming the conversion of the plaintiff was valid her conversion would not give her the status of a dwij or twice-born, that to me the status of the Author is not known from the briefs and assuming he is one among the four caste of Hindus and that as such there could be no valid marriage between him and with that of his Muslim wife now converted into a Hindu for a simple reason that she could not become a dwij by her conversion, and that at any rate a marriage such as that between the Author and that of his wife is not allowable according to Hindu Law as it now obtains in this country and perhaps this valid questions does call for some more examination by hard core experts of Hindu Law as I am all written up after reading from late Prof. Paras Deewan to Mullas to Maynes to even Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics as stated in above paras the essence of this thread.

Well according to me to sum up some of the issues evolved before us which are;
i. it is a case of charge and nothing else. Therefore consideration is not necessary.

ii. because if this posts Author races for divorce the decree of divorce is good and the Arya Samaj marriage after respondent’s conversion to Hinduism is good and

iii. because, even if the decree for divorce were invalid, yet the Arya Samaj marriage of the Author and his defendant/wife is not proved to be invalid.

Relief to Author / Hindu Husband? OPD

@Kushan

There was no formal conversion by Mr. Rajiv Gandhi but he was brought up like a Hindu. That is the correct proposition of law. Reading the statutes by their literal words do provide guidance however the real meaning could only be understood by looking into the intention of legislature.

You opinion about Art25 of COI provides that there is no bar on observing and following any religion. But my question was different. I asked that when a boy if born from the parsi wedlock and he is parsi by birth, then how is he a hindu later on? There was no FORMAL decleration in this regard by the Gandhi Family.

THE ANSWER IS:: He was brought up like a hindu by his mother. Not because he had right to follow a religion.

I feel professional responding to my query are not able to comprehend my views. Despite several attempts I've not been able to find a single person who first understand my question and answer. All are answering what they know but not what is required.

I'm done with this question.....END OF ROAD.....

//peace

/Saurabh.V

Former Foreign Minister K Natwar Singh made an interesting revelation about Indira Gandhi's affinity to the Mughals in his book “Profile and Letters” (ISBN: 8129102358). It states that- In 1968 Indira Gandhi as the Prime Minister of India went on an official visit to Afghanistan. Natwar Sing accompanied her as an IFS officer in duty. After having completed the day's long engagements, Indira Gandhi wanted to go out for a ride in the evening. After going a long distance in the car, Indira Gandhi wanted to visit Babur's burial place, though this was not included in the itinerary. The Afghan security officials tried to dissuade her, but she was adamant. In the end she went to that burial place. It was a deserted place. She went before Babur's grave, stood there for a few minutes with head bent down in reverence. Natwar Singh stood behind her. When Indira had finished her prayers, she turned back and told Singh “Today we have had our brush with history.” Worth to mention that Babur was the founder of Mughal rule in India, from which the Nehru-Gandhi dynasty have descended.

In personal conduct Rajiv was very much a Mughal. On 15^th August 1988 he thundered from the ramparts of the Red Fort: “Our endeavor should be to take the country to heights to which it belonged about 250-300 years ago. If history is recalled then it was then the reign of Aurangzeb, the ‘jeziya’ master and number one temple destroyer.”

The press conference that Rajiv Gandhi gave in London after taking over as prime minister of India was very informative. In this press conference, Rajiv boasted that he is not a Hindu but a Parsi. Feroze Khan’s father and Rajiv Gandhi's paternal grandfather was a Muslim gentleman from the Junagadh area of Gujarat. This Muslim grocer by the name of Nawab Khan had married a Parsi woman after converting her to Islam. This is the source where from the myth of Rajiv being a Parsi was derived. Mind that he had no Parsi ancestor at all. His paternal grandmother had turned Muslim after having abandoned the Parsi religion to marry Nawab Khan. Surprisingly, Parsi Rajiv Gandhi was cremated as per Vedic rites in full view of Indian public.

@tajobsindia

My dear friend, again you have gone into debate of your knowledge as compared with mine.

Still the qestion is unanswered.

Ok let me be little open and ask you a very simple question. Suppose, a Hindu male marries a Muslim female under Special Marriage Act. A male child is born out of that wedlock. That child is brought up like a muslim (though no formal decleration was made). The child visits mosques with his mother and performs all rituals as required by a muslim. On the other hand, they also have a girl child, who is brought up like a hindu. She is sent to temple and follows worship of statues etc.

Now reply, what is the religion of these children? (May be now you would understand my point).

//peace

/Saurabh.V

Its not actually about Rajiv being a Hindu or Parsi but about the technical theory which needs to be followed while determining the religion of a person.

--------

 1. Under the modern Hindu Law the child's religion is not necessarily that of the father.

 
2. If the mother at the time of child's birth was a Hindu and the child was brought up as a Hindu, the child will be Hindu.

3. A child is born of Hindu mother and Muslim father. The child is brought up as Hindu. Subsequently mother converts to Islam. If at this point of time the question arise whether the child is Hindu? I find that neither of the parents is a Hindu but nonetheless the child is Hindu.

4. The child of a Hindu father and Christian mother was held as to be Christian.

5. Que.: Is it necessary that the child should be brought up as a member of tribe, community, caste, group or family to which the Hindu belong at the time of the birth of the child?

Take: My submission is that, the bringing up of the child in any of the religions of Hindus is not necessary, the requirement being that the child should be brought up in the Hindu way of life.

6. A male child is born of Hindu father and Muslim mother. The child is brought up as Muslim. Subsequently mother converts to Hindu. If at this point of time the question arise whether the child is Muslim? I find that both the parents are a Hindu nonetheless the child is Muslim.

7. A female child is born of Hindu father and Muslim mother. The child is brought up as Hindu. Subsequently mother converts to Hindu. If at this point of time the question arise whether the child is Hindu? I find that both the parents are a Hindu nonetheless the child is Hindu.

Take: For you as a Law Student the questions may be simple but I find amusing to see desire to know technical answer to simple question of Law. However, once you complete your studies of Modern Hindu Law we may discuss further and with which I am closing my replies to simple but technical moot court questions.  

I dont know what to say!!

It all started with my problem, and now my query is lost somewhere in your debate!!! But its good to see that you people are debating for  cause!!!

Hats off to you all people, who are helping people like us without any personal ambition or greed!!!

Thank You again to all of you!!!

My special Thanks goes to Mr Arup Jee and Mr Saurabh!!!

Regards,

Sunny