Stamp duty paid on flat and the agreement not been registered in mumbai
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 12 April 2016
This query is : Resolved
Sir,
This is in relation to stamp duty paid on flat and the agreement not been registered in Mumbai
Breif
My father has purchased flat from the 1st owner (there is 2 page sale agreement between 1st owner and builder, executed in 1981/82 and this agreement is not stamped and also not registered, as far as my knowledge, the stamp duty is applicable from 10.12.1985 and the buyers are registered flat only in case of any financial assistance taken from Bank) in Aug-1986.
The total agreement value approx. 1.38 lacs and stamp duty paid approx. 13000/-, but I am unable to locate document related to registration. In nut shell, I presume that the document is not registered by my father due to lack of knowledge.
Query
1. Is there is way out to locate registration details, if my father has registered agreement
2. If not, if we are going to register agreement today, whether stamp duty is applicable on current valuation of flat as per ready reckoner
3. If yes, pl suggest way forward to prevent to pay additional stamp duty on the current valuation, as this would be additional burden on us
Regards
Deepak Agarwal
Guest
(Expert) 18 April 2016
You lack Stamp duty knowledge , I have seen stamp duty paid in 1900 land purchase agreement under British controlled area.
Present stamp act is applicable from 1958 previous act was repelled. So Stamp duty is more than 100 years old
Registration act 1908 , before that too registration act was there , but manner in which documents where kept where different.
So you are totally misled regarding Registration and Stamp Duty
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Clarify --- About financial assistance from bank word
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 18 April 2016
sir,
request you to provide way forward based on queries raised
Guest
(Expert) 18 April 2016
1) Chances document with bank , ask bank
2) Go to sub registrar their private clerk are there they can do work , but they charge whatever they like and depends no. of years. It is called search. There is no Guarantee
3) Whether seller and buyer available , and ready in such case seller is never ready to sell , he ask for more money
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 19 April 2016
Sir
We had already paid stamp duty in 1986 but agreement is not registered, in this case, we would like to get agreement registered without any additional stamp duty on it.
Whether there is any possible way to do this
Guest
(Expert) 19 April 2016
I have various query on same question , I will read as well talk to one person in registration office(Govt. employee) in Thane City and revert back till tomorrow evening. If I don't revert back buzz me by sending message here . So I don't forget tomorrow evening this problem I will get permanent solution permanently (Study as well as ground reality )
Myself student so some time need to check with proper person so need time hope you understand
V R SHROFF
(Expert) 22 April 2016
It seems your propert is a Flat in co-operative Society, and Registration was not necessary for co-op society Flats till 1985.
Was it so???
Other immovable properties attrcts registration/ stamp duty , as rightly pointed out by Shri Madhu.
Guest
(Expert) 22 April 2016
Resp. Shroff Sir,
I checked Mahrashtra Flat Ownershp Act 1963 , Since developed doubt on your statement , I also checked below it amending done in that section. And to my conclusion Registration was compulsory from 1963 because Act came then
2. In 1984 Sec 4 was renumbered this is only amendment mentioned in Govt published Act
3. In 1984 Indian Registration Act 1908 this words where substitute as Registration Act 1908
4. Document which required to be attached with registration was inserted in 1986 i.e. Sec 1(A) of Sec 4
5. So analyzing that section proeperly of registration I conclude Registration was made compulsory from 1963. Responsibility is fixed on builder
Guest
(Expert) 22 April 2016
Agarwal Sir,
Actually there were many queries so I made list of all permutation and combination and asked that person who works in that Registration office. So I get grip of whole matter how to solve such problem in most direction , even in complex problem.
Additionally I told him I have few work from Thane City only. So he need to check few complicated from senior and tell you. Because Registrar under Registration Act have certain powers in Flat act. Additionally matters regarding registration which are 20-25 years old that too I wanted information , Builder missing that too I wanted information . So he told me I will guide you tomorrow .
Additionally today I will read Stamp Duty Act and Registration Act , Maharashtra Flat ownership Act. again
I read previously but from angle of complication of documents I require to read again.
But I assure you I asked him today , he told he too need some clarification in some complex case from senior (He knows me for many years , so it was not delay but some time even department person requires to get proper information including how much senior is going to ask money for doing work. Its open secret , In complex matter registrar of sub assurance takes money because he has some powers given under Law which he require to pass orders , If we go too straight it may take more time and expenses of follow up etc. is more than giving them money)
Some powers are provided to Registrar under Registration Act but such powers section is present in Maharashtra Flat Ownership Act. Hence all three acts required examination.
Sorry that honest people won't like my statement which is written above regarding corruption but even in judiciary for making affidavit which is submitted in court money person have to place to that officer.
Guest
(Expert) 23 April 2016
Well few queries , please ans. in point Yes or No
1) Whether builder and first purchaser did registration of sale agreement and stamp duty paid.
2) First purchaser and your father whether did registration of sale agreement/sale deed and stamp duty paid
3) I presume you have possession of flat till date
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Because there are some notification issued few years back etc. which have further complicated the issue so need time but I need proper ans. to this question which I raised once again in point only
Guest
(Expert) 23 April 2016
Additional information required to previous query
1) If any agreement/deed not signed then whether all parties alive or co-operative
2) If any agreement /deed not signed then whether all parties alive or co-operative
Problem is some notification date 2011 have complicated the issue now . So need to analysis the issue with present Act /Rules /notification.
Guest
(Expert) 23 April 2016
Basically went through all notification and various amendment minutely , This problem was solved in different methods in different time.
Till 1985/1984 there was specific date by which you could do registration in absence of builder this provision was under MOFA 1963
Then they introduced till date 5 amnesty scheme for payment of Stamp Duty (Not registration fee) last was in 2008 or 09.
After 1984/85 cut of date when registration was not done then people use to do (If seller buyer available) Confirmatory deed,
After 1984/84 cut of date when registration was not done then people use to do (If seller absent) Declaratory Deed .
With Confirmatory Deed and Declaratory Deed they use to attach previous document
In 2011 Inspector General of Registrar issued Notification under relevant section citing violation of some Supreme court judgement , further amendment in Registration Act done by State and Central and passed order this Confirmation and Declaratory Deed should not be allowed with original Sale Deed /Agreement of Sale (Which are not registered.
The only option which they gave was in last paragraph of that notification (It is Marathi and myself from not from Marathi medium so rare words take time to interpret) -- Person have to pay stamp duty as per present market valuation (Year of Building will reduce Stamp duty as there is concession in it) , pay registration fee as per present rate both parties should be present with witness like standard procedure.
Now in this case person who sold and is not willing to co-operate or his legal heir not willing to co-operate then there is problem . The privileged which was given Under MOFA act 1963 to Registrar under registration act is till specific date and it is over long back , and Since keep touch with changing policy in Revenue Secretary till now not heard that this amendment date will be changed . It is almost 20 years old date.
Now problem is that you are occupying Flat but neither you have title in flat , nor title in building and structure (because deemed conveyance will not take place) . So just you are residing in that flat without legal protection this only I can interpret from all
@ Shroff Sir,
Whether you would suggest Agarwal sir to move under Specific Relief Act for declaration or any thing else under circumstances. If seller is not willing to sell is not available /not ready to come and sign in front of registrar.
Please give input.
Guest
(Expert) 23 April 2016
@ Shroff Sir,
Whether you would suggest Agarwal sir to move under Specific Relief Act for declaration or any thing else under circumstances. If seller is not willing to sell is not available /not ready to come and sign in front of registrar.
Please give input since you are from Mumbai
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 24 April 2016
sir, pl refer answers to queries
1) Whether builder and first purchaser did registration of sale agreement and stamp duty paid.
(Deepak) - No (2 page agreement between Builder and 1st Purchaser executed in 1981 and subsquently modified in Nov-85 for increase in considerations)
2) First purchaser and your father whether did registration of sale agreement/sale deed and stamp duty paid
(Deepak) - Partly Yes (My father has paid stamp duty on sale agreement, but the agreement is not registered, agreement executed in Aug-1986)
3) I presume you have possession of flat till date
(Deepak) - Yes (I am staying with my father)
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 24 April 2016
Sir, pl refer answer to additional queries
1) If any agreement/deed not signed then whether all parties alive or co-operative
(Deepak) - Agreement is duly executed, signed by both parties and stamp duty paid (agreement is not registered, may be lack of knowledge or may be necessarily not required at that time)
2) If any agreement /deed not signed then whether all parties alive or co-operative
(Deepak) - Agreement is duly executed, signed by both parties and stamp duty paid (agreement is not registered, may be lack of knowledge or may be necessarily not required at that time)
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 24 April 2016
Shroff sir,
We have paid appropriate stamp duty on the agreement in 1986 and may be lack of knowledge or may be necessarily not required at that time, we had not registered the agreement.
in this case, is there any way out to get this agreement registered today without any additional stamp duty as per present market valuation?
Request you to suggest on above
Regards
Deepak
Guest
(Expert) 24 April 2016
See major question which we have now is
1) Presence of original builder and purchaser in Registration office for signing supplementary agreement (with full stamp duty and reg. fee)
2) Presence of original purchaser and second purchaser in Registration office .
(with full stamp duty and reg fee . Stamp duty concession is there if you register second transaction within year)
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Now to conclude this statement I referred to Notification etc. which is in Marathi from Inspector General of Registration Maharashtra Website.
So I prefer to believe in what it is written than what orally people say.
I can forward you all notification which I got on your email address , you try to understand it
My email address - kmadhu786@gmail.com
(Notification have said Confirmatory deed and Declaratory Deed should not be registered from 2011 in Maharashtra . Reason etc. is also given )
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 25 April 2016
sir,
I have not understood that the reason for paying stamp duty on supplementary agreement against the original agreement executed in 1981
and also on the requirement of getting 1st or supplymentary agreement needs to be registered at present
Guest
(Expert) 25 April 2016
See In eyes of law , first transaction between builder and first purchaser was invalid . They did not pay stamp duty properly nor document registered . So first purchaser never got proper legal title in flat.
Without having title he sold to second purchaser (that is your father)
The way any person on road can not sell anyone flat similarly person who don't have legal title can not sell flat . So first transaction required to be made straight . Once it is done at same time better do second transaction straight . And thus it become straight .
Bit complex but better do , since you have take up the issue better solve. Keeping problem create more problem as law keep on changing and I noticed after observing all changes it is becoming difficult year by year to make previous wrongs straight
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 25 April 2016
Sir,
This option may not be feasible, as builder and 1st buyer will not agree, by chance, if they agreed the additional amount of stamp duty and registration certainly they will not bear
I have an alternate way,
Can my father gift this property to me and I will registered gift deed in my name. Gift deed can be executed on the INR 500/- stamp paper, apart from this, no additional stamp duty would be require to pay other than registration charges.
Pl suggest whether this will work out
Guest
(Expert) 25 April 2016
Problem is that , in future when you sell the flat or try to do any transaction that time they will say you don't have title in flat properly.
1) They take all chain of agreement and then conclude the title.
2) In your case person who sold flat to your father had no title in flat
3) Your father paper too not proper 100%
4) If your father do any gift deed to you, its ok for your feeling
5) But when next person tries to purchase flat /take loan from bank /or any other transaction and when they see previous flat transaction invalid no one will purchase flat
6) Any how their are people still , it will be loss transaction
7) Property is life time investment for 98% people in India
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 25 April 2016
Sir,
Our society has gone in process of deemed conveyance and we trust that the award of the same in Society favour (as precedent is there of another society in our area)
We have come to know about post Deemed Conveyance order, the Deed of Conveyance would require to registered and that time Registrar shall verify all the agreement.
At that moment we can produce the Gift Deed along with chain agreement.
Post redevelopment, all the documents shall be in my name, hence there would not be any challenge for any sale transactions happens post redevelopment.
Guest
(Expert) 25 April 2016
Problem is that when Deed of Conveyance (Under Deemed Conveyance section) is registered that time Registrar will verify all the agreement.
That time If he finds this irregularity then he will stay the proceedings, most probably .
Now whether he checks all minutely or ignore that will depend upon him or accidentally it misses his eye sight.
In Marathi notification which I read from IG of registrar states , If Stamp Duty is paid properly then document will be admitted as evidence in court of law under relevant section of Maharashtra Stamp Act.
In this case may be Registrar can opt that you pay deficient stamp duty or so, so you need to be mentally prepare for paying stamp duty at this date.
I feel don't run for Gift Deed at this stage . because let things get sorted out at your father level and then do next transaction. If that officer see gift deed and then look back to check chain he may find all irregularities.
Still you may think how to put previous irregularities straight .
Since you are talking Redevelopment subject now only myself skeptical this loop hole builder will try to exploit because he or his next generation or legal heir will be interested in project.
Deepak Agarwal
(Querist) 26 April 2016
Thank you sir for taking so much effort
Request you to send all government notification/circulars to my mail ID - d_r_agarwal@yahoo.co.in
Will try to look forward any other options, as we have not concealed stamp duty or registration fees purposely
Guest
(Expert) 27 April 2016
Send all notification on email :)
